Living Legend in the Law – EBEN RAWLS

TXT Transcript of Law Talk with Bill Powers – February 1, 2022

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[bill_powers]: Hello, and thank you for joining us for another episode of law talk. The Practice of Law

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[bill_powers]: law is a challenging way to make a living. At times, it is deeply fulfilling,

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[bill_powers]: meaningful and personally satisfying work. It is a true honor and privilege to

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[bill_powers]: help clients in their time of need. Most lawyers go to law school because they

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[bill_powers]: care about people. they want to make a difference. It is a principal decision,

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[bill_powers]: one predicated on a life dedicated to others and the highest and best aims of

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[bill_powers]: the law, that is to serve the greater good. That’s why many lawyers consider

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[bill_powers]: what they do for a living their profession, the praxal law, a higher calling.

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[bill_powers]: The vast majority of lawyers I know, particularly criminal defense lawyers in

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[bill_powers]: Charlotte and throughout North Carolina, care about people and their community.

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[bill_powers]: Criminal defense must be a love and passion. Very few lawyers get rich doing

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[bill_powers]: defenencee work. It’s not like Medmo or P. I, or even divorce law, criminal

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[bill_powers]: lawyers, criminal offense lawyers want to impact lives in a positive way. They

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[bill_powers]: want to share the benefit of a long and very expensive education to serve

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[bill_powers]: others justice. True justice is at times a difficult endeavour, criminal

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[bill_powers]: offense, Tourney, C, and in some instance have purfsely lived through the

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[bill_powers]: prejudices inherent with our system of justice. They tend to be the type of

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[bill_powers]: people who stand up the bullies and speak truth to power. and for whatever

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[bill_powers]: reason, criminal defense lawyers are all too often malined as proponents of

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[bill_powers]: crime or impediments to the rule of law. The de vision on whether to attend

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[bill_powers]: three years of law school, sit for a bar examination. subject yourself to

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[bill_powers]: ethical background checks and dedicate your career to helping others with

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[bill_powers]: difficult fact patterns that are often unpopular in the court of public

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[bill_powers]: opinion, Might be best called a journey. It takes time in some pretty thick

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[bill_powers]: skin. Not everyone starts on the same path, Not everyone. One has a straight

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[bill_powers]: road to success, or is guaranteed success or personal satisfaction, or even fi

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[bill_powers]: financial stability. The praxs along, especially to practic criminal defense

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[bill_powers]: law can be a difficult way to make a living.

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[bill_powers]: To day. I am privileged to be joined by attorney Evan Ralls, premier criminal

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[bill_powers]: defense lawyer in Charlotte, and one of the best most admirable human beings.

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[bill_powers]: I’ve ever had the privilege of calling friend, Welcome, Evon. thanks for

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[bill_powers]: joining us.

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[eben_rawls]: at high Bill, and nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me look forward to the

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[eben_rawls]: spotcast.

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[bill_powers]: Yeah, me too. E is something I’ve been really looking forward for quite some

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[bill_powers]: time. Uh, have I’ve been practiced law since nineteen ninety two,

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[bill_powers]: and that’s about thirty years now, almost and have seen a thing or two. and

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[bill_powers]: during my tenure with the Advocates for Justice, travelling throughout North

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[bill_powers]: Carolina, Tri, being trying cases in different jurisdictions. I’ve been really

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[bill_powers]: lucky to meet many many wonderful lawyers, and with that said there are very

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[bill_powers]: few professional colleagues I have encountered whether they be criminal defense

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[bill_powers]: lawyers, divorce lawyers, factent lawyers, prosecutors, judges who haven’t as

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[bill_powers]: interesting as a personal story, As uh, you do your journey, as I like to call

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[bill_powers]: it is truly remarkable. I suspect your personal journey is also important

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[bill_powers]: aspect of what makes you so incredibly good at what you do, and to get people

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[bill_powers]: up the speed, let me brag on you for a minute. That’s okay,

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[eben_rawls]: That’s fine.

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[bill_powers]: Okay, And and please correct me up from wrong. Uh, So graduated Uh, Duke

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[bill_powers]: University in nineteen seventy two. I went to U and C. Chapel Hill and

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[bill_powers]: graduated to law school in nineteen seventy eight. Um. You’ve um, won about

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[bill_powers]: every professal accolade I I can think of from Vstlers in America, white collar

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[bill_powers]: criminal offense and non white collar criminal offense, which means something

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[bill_powers]: super lawyers spend in business, North Carolinagte.

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[bill_powers]: You’re a state bar counselor for the Mcburg County bar, Near the chair

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[bill_powers]: currently of the ethics committee for the North Carolina State Bar and Um, your

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[bill_powers]: former chair of the mecro, Uh, criminal, uh, bar section, I’m that right, and

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[bill_powers]: um, maybe, uh, bullet points number one and two. Give us a good place to uh,

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[bill_powers]: jump out. You know, get going here. so you graduate Duke Undergrad Nineteen

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[bill_powers]: seventy two, and Chapel Hill Law School in seventy eight, and Uh, with law

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[bill_powers]: school being three years, that means you would have started in nineteen seventy

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[bill_powers]: five. Is that right?

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[eben_rawls]: No bill. that’s that’s wrong. I started Duke in Uh, nineteen sixty seven

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[eben_rawls]: and

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[bill_powers]: Oh, wow.

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[eben_rawls]: took a year off after my sophomore year,

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[eben_rawls]: and Uh travelled around the country some hitch hiking and went up to Woodstock

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[eben_rawls]: pop festival in Woodstock, New York,

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[eben_rawls]: Um and Uh came back to Duke, Uh to finish my last two years at Duke and then I

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[eben_rawls]: took a year off. Uh. After finishing, Duke moved immediately to New York City,

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[eben_rawls]: where I got my New York City, taxi cab driver’s license in New York State

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[eben_rawls]: driver’s license, and drove a taxi up there on and off for the next year, but

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[eben_rawls]: interspersed that with Uh, traveling around the country,

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, getting out to San Francisco

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[eben_rawls]: and in San Francisco. Uh,

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[eben_rawls]: I had Uh, applied to Carolina law school. It was the only place I could afford

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[eben_rawls]: in state tuition. I had taken the law boards at Arizona State University after

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[eben_rawls]: I’d hitchhiked up there to sleep on the A gymnasium doors, Uh step in the

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[eben_rawls]: morning,

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[eben_rawls]: and Uh found out that I was accepted in law school from San Francisco.

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[eben_rawls]: Uh came back across the country and started

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[eben_rawls]: Uh law school in Uh, seventy three. September of seventy three,

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[eben_rawls]: Um, I really did not warm up to the law school. Uh, and the uh, uh, Ive, I

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[eben_rawls]: figured I, I was so involved in meditation and ▁zincenter activities on Page

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[eben_rawls]: Street in San Francisco. I think I came to law school kind of expecting a uh. a

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[eben_rawls]: temple of justice and and people who were uh, seriously interested in in finding

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[eben_rawls]: the right paths towards equal justice for all,

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[eben_rawls]: but I had uh. I. I had good grades, but at the end of my first year of law

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[eben_rawls]: school, I went to Dean Dixon Phillips and said Dean, I, I can’t afford to come

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[eben_rawls]: back to law school next year,

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[eben_rawls]: and uh, he said to me,

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[eben_rawls]: Well, you’ve got good grades and I had him for the small section,

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[eben_rawls]: um, uh, civil procedure, he said, If you’ve got good grades, If you ever want to

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[eben_rawls]: come back, I’ve got a chair for you. So for the next two years Bill, Uh,

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[eben_rawls]: I wandered around, went back to New York City to drive a taxi.

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, ended up living in a communal situation outside of Chapel Hill, where I

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[eben_rawls]: reconverted an old tobacco barn to live in,

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[eben_rawls]: then moved to New Orleans, Uh, where I was both a bouncer at a bar in the Garden

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[eben_rawls]: District, in a place called Trinities

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[eben_rawls]: and also Uh was uh, learning how to weld, So I have some certificates from

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[eben_rawls]: welding and I have some great memories from bouncing at the bar,

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[eben_rawls]: but then took off to Mexico, Central America for Uh, four or five months all the

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[eben_rawls]: way down to Uh, Costa Rica, taking buses and trains,

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[eben_rawls]: Um.

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[eben_rawls]: Came back

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[eben_rawls]: Uh,

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[eben_rawls]: across the border again at the Gallas, Uh. Arizona ended back up in San

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[eben_rawls]: Francisco, washing dishes at an Indian restaurant on the embarkadero, a place

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[eben_rawls]: called an Julie’s and I realized at that point that Uh, if I didn’t call Dean

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[eben_rawls]: Phillips back, I would probably be doing what dishwashing jobs and construction

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[eben_rawls]: jobs the rest of my life. So I called Dean Phillips, he said Yep, I got a seat

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[eben_rawls]: for you. Come on back, so nineteen seventy six September, I drove my nineteen

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[eben_rawls]: sixty F. Lime green Ford pickup truck back across the country

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[eben_rawls]: and finished up law school in nineteen seventy eight.

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[eben_rawls]: Now, during that time in law school, I never interviewed for a job.

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, I had to work to put myself through law school.

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[eben_rawls]: I think back then the tuition Uh for a semester at Chapel Hill was three hundred

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[eben_rawls]: and seventy one dollars a semester, So it was affordable for instate Uh

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[eben_rawls]: students, but I worked as a cook at a vegetarian restaurant in Durham, Uh every

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[eben_rawls]: Friday night Saturday, Sunday went to law school. Monday through Friday

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[eben_rawls]: graduated in seventy eight. So I, I didn’t you know? that’s uh. That’s kind of a

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[eben_rawls]: summary of how I got Uh from seventy two to seventy eight.

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[bill_powers]: Wow, that’s quite a

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[bill_powers]: incredible story.

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[eben_rawls]: Well,

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[bill_powers]: I don’t even know where to start. There. So many different interesting thoughts

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[bill_powers]: there. Where did you grow up? If you said I missed it,

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[eben_rawls]: I G. I grew up in Winston Salem, North Carolina, Um and Uh grew up. Uh, sort of

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[eben_rawls]: a child of the fifties,

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[eben_rawls]: Um started. My parents were about as middle class as you could get. My dad

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[eben_rawls]: worked at Western Electric. My mom stayed home,

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[eben_rawls]: Um, but I started carrying papers for the Winston Salem Journal and Sentinel,

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, when I was in sixth grade, so every morning at five o’clock I’d go get my

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[eben_rawls]: load of papers and carry them over to Mary Mount neighborhood.

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[eben_rawls]: Um, and every afternoon do the same thing. The journal was the morning paper,

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[eben_rawls]: The Sentinel was the afternoon paper, and the Sunday papers were the Journal and

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[eben_rawls]: Sentinel, Uh. but Uh grew up in Winston Salem and Um.

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[eben_rawls]: When I uh applied to Duke and was accepted,

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[eben_rawls]: I really never moved back to Winceton Salem after that.

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[bill_powers]: Why did you choose Duke? I mean, I mean, obviously great school. And you’re

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[bill_powers]: from North Carolina,

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[eben_rawls]: right.

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[bill_powers]: right there at Wake Forest.

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[bill_powers]: What? what motivated you?

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[eben_rawls]: Well, my, my, my father, Uh, was a graduate of Wake Forest.

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, but I applied at both Chapel Hill and Duke and was accepted at both places.

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[eben_rawls]: but I, um, went down to visit a friend of mine who was a freshman at Duke while

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[eben_rawls]: I was a senior in high school,

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[eben_rawls]: and Um spent the weekend down there with him and really fell in love with the

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[eben_rawls]: place. And it was. it was of course more expensive than Uh. Chapel Hill,

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[eben_rawls]: but uh, it was Uh. When I started in sixty seven, it was six hundred dollars.

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, a semester, tuition plus housing and stuff like that. Chapel Hill was a

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[eben_rawls]: hundred and seventy five dollars. maybe a semester. At that time.

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[bill_powers]: Now? I was alive in sixty seven. I can’t say remember sixty seven, But I was

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[bill_powers]: alive and Um,

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[bill_powers]: being in college at that time

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[bill_powers]: must have been different. My father was in college when I was born in sixty

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[bill_powers]: five, and Um, he had a few deferments. If you don’t know what deferments are,

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[bill_powers]: Maybe

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[bill_powers]: Evan, you can talk about that a little bit. He was in college. He just had a

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[bill_powers]: brand new baby and Um, there was this little place in um Southeas Asia. We used

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[bill_powers]: to call it Indo Chinaina, Uh, where there was a conflict which a lot of people

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[bill_powers]: don’t remember how much how different that time was and how and scary that time

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[bill_powers]: was. actually, Um. growing up through that. So, do you mind talk about that a

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[eben_rawls]: No bill. I don’t mind at all, and you and I both have represented Uh, Vietnam

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[bill_powers]: little bit as you feel comfortable.

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[eben_rawls]: veterans that are still suffering from the trauma

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[bill_powers]: Mhm,

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[eben_rawls]: and the disabilities of their service. Uh, over there and I and I, I don’t know

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[eben_rawls]: what it is, but I always put some special extra enthusiasm into my

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[eben_rawls]: representation of those vets because I did grow up during that time and I was

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[eben_rawls]: uh, very much, Uh. anti War marched on Washington several times.

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, I’ve got tear gas once or twice,

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[eben_rawls]: but Um, because I dropped out of Duke for a year, My sophomore year I lost my Uh

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[eben_rawls]: college deferment and at that point Uh, the everybody was eligible for the draft

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[eben_rawls]: until they had the draft lottery. Uh, and I can’t remember exactly the year. It

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[eben_rawls]: was probably

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[eben_rawls]: sixty nine, seventy seventy, one, somewhere in there,

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[eben_rawls]: but I got called up twice to the draft board by E. When I was back in school

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[eben_rawls]: and the draft board, Uh, for North Carolina was in Charlotte, had to report to

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[eben_rawls]: the Selective Service Center in Winston Salem, Uh, from Duke. When I was in

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[eben_rawls]: school, they put us on a bus and took us down to

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[eben_rawls]: Uh Charlotte, where we spent a day doing through mental and physical Uh

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[eben_rawls]: examinations. And Um,

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[eben_rawls]: so I, just to make a long story short, I was, I had to go twice. I was lucky

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[eben_rawls]: enough to uh, not get drafted and, but I had decided that if I were drafted, I

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[eben_rawls]: had several friends that had gone into military intelligence.

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[eben_rawls]: That would be the route that I would try to go because I’m pretty big and I’m

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[eben_rawls]: pretty slow and I just imagine I would be an easy target for just about anybody.

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[eben_rawls]: But that was Uh,

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[bill_powers]: right,

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[eben_rawls]: that was a hard time, and Um, we all knew people that had been seriously wounded

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[eben_rawls]: and and died over there.

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[eben_rawls]: Um it? It really touched every family across this country,

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[bill_powers]: Yeah, I spent a lot of time with Uh, maternal grandfather,

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[bill_powers]: who was a medic, Um in Okinawa,

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[bill_powers]: and Um and um, live with them for a while. And I remember his stories talking

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[bill_powers]: about that And this was in the

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[bill_powers]: Oh gosh late seventies, early eighties, not that far

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[bill_powers]: past, Um. Vietnam, let alone for War two,

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[eben_rawls]: right.

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[bill_powers]: And Um, for you, don’t know this, and I, I think this is how it was done. My

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[bill_powers]: uncle is about your age, and if you were eligible for the draft the way they

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[bill_powers]: would select you for a draft, they used to have a big hopper, as I remember,

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[bill_powers]: and they would put birth dates in there and they would roll the hopper and pu

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[bill_powers]: the birth out. And I want to say my uncle was like the third one picked, which

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[bill_powers]: was you were going to get drafted And I remember him, and that time

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[bill_powers]: and stories about my grandfather, who, like I said, serve in Okinawa. And there

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[bill_powers]: were conversations about

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[bill_powers]: what was going to happen and how that was going to progress. And so

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[bill_powers]: Um, when I was a freshman in college and I, I started when i was seventeen. I

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[bill_powers]: remember when I turned eighteen, going to draft war and sign up for that. I

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[bill_powers]: don’t even know if they do that

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[bill_powers]: anymore. Um,

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[eben_rawls]: Oh, it’s required,

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[eben_rawls]: you requirement you turn eighteen. You’re required to register with selective

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[eben_rawls]: service.

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[bill_powers]: right and Um. During that time period in college we were engaged in another uh

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[bill_powers]: thing, and there was a conversation about whether that was going to move

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[bill_powers]: forward And so Um, we never really drafted anyone for any of the gulf, Um.

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[bill_powers]: wars, But I remember being in in college and and thinking about that as being

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[bill_powers]: an option, and you were in the middle of it, which was

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[bill_powers]: very, Um. Well, at that age grew very likely, Um, and Um, carrying that around.

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[bill_powers]: I. I. That had to affect you just on your thoughts. I mean, you mentioned you

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[bill_powers]: had done some demonstrations. What was what was kind of the feel Back then. It

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[bill_powers]: give people maybe younger listeners an idea. What the what that time was like?

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[eben_rawls]: Well, everybody remembers their draft number because it was a national event and

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[eben_rawls]: you’ right. they sort of like Bingo. They had a big barrel with ping pong

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[eben_rawls]: uh birth dates on it and my draft number was eleven And that was one of the

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[eben_rawls]: reasons I

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[eben_rawls]: up.

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[eben_rawls]: um.

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[eben_rawls]: but uh, it was a a time where there was polarization almost like there is today.

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[eben_rawls]: There was a very strong

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[eben_rawls]: Um,

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[eben_rawls]: conservative,

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, Richard Nixon type,

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, culture and partisans, and then there was a very radical

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[eben_rawls]: Um movement That that was violent. and then there were pacifists and so there

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[eben_rawls]: were. there were Uh, strong opinions across the entire spectrum, Uh, having to

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[eben_rawls]: do not only with the war in Vietnam, but with civil rights at the time.

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[eben_rawls]: And when I was at Duke, uh, we, we had some remarkable civil rights

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[eben_rawls]: demonstrations when the Duke Hospital workers were trying to unionize

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[eben_rawls]: and Um, and also uh, uh, going up to Washington again, But uh, it was a time of

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[eben_rawls]: uh, of uh, of partisanship, But it was also build a sort of uh, a a gap in time

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[eben_rawls]: where

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, young men and women had freedom to really move about in this country,

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, to explore their passions to live in communal situations to

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[eben_rawls]: uh, and to not be tied down to a nine to five predictable. Life, and so it made

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[eben_rawls]: for an interesting Uh, groups of inf, very interesting groups of people that

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[eben_rawls]: would

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[eben_rawls]: open their uh arms to travelers like me, who traveled across the country a

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[eben_rawls]: number of times,

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[eben_rawls]: but also uh, explored ways to live communally

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[eben_rawls]: Um with shared responsibilities, and Um. And so it was an interesting time and

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[eben_rawls]: uh

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[eben_rawls]: and I’m glad I was able to experience it.

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[bill_powers]: Well, some one of the things I see, younger lawyers, especially those who are

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[bill_powers]: interested in different causes and trying to seek justice and do right,

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[bill_powers]: get frustrated with the the system and the biases inherent with the system

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[bill_powers]: perspective you take. And I like to remind them that Yes, there’s lots and lots

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[bill_powers]: of room and and work, important work to be done.

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[bill_powers]: And it’s better now than it used to be. Uh in In in some ways, Um, and the

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[bill_powers]: country was just a different um place, a a different era that it even me

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[bill_powers]: preparing for this and thinking about it. and uh,

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[bill_powers]: um,

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[bill_powers]: uh, you know I, One of my first memories is Uh, Man walking on the moon in

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[bill_powers]: July, nineteen, sixty nine, I remember coming in and uh, my mom grabbed me. I

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[bill_powers]: didn’t want to uh, come inside. I remember, was playing outside and seen the

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[bill_powers]: little, um, black and white

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[bill_powers]: uh, ▁zenith television that had basically uh, three channels, maybe four. If

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[bill_powers]: you turned the antennas just right, Um, and and

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[bill_powers]: during during that time period when you went to Duke, did you have an idea of

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[bill_powers]: what you wanted to do or were you flushing that out where you experimenting

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[bill_powers]: more with that and figure out who you were? I, uh, I got a daughter in college

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[bill_powers]: right now and the

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[bill_powers]: the speed at which it’s uh, we. We pushed these kids nowadays, I mean, we have

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[bill_powers]: these study coaches to study for. S. a Ts. We expect keep kids to, Um, all have

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[bill_powers]: straight asce to get into different universities. We are to start immediately

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[bill_powers]: and finish immediately. it. it. culturally, it’s it’s really. I think changed

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[bill_powers]: compared to what you’ve done where you took some time off and travel around.

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[bill_powers]: Did you know you wanted to be a lawyer? Did that affect why you went to law

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[bill_powers]: school?

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[eben_rawls]: That’s a good question, Bill, because I think I tried on many many uh hats

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[eben_rawls]: before I landed Uh in law school and became a lawyer.

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, when I was uh in high school and Winton Salem, I was fortunate enough to

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[eben_rawls]: have a Sunday school teacher my junior year

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[eben_rawls]: who, Uh,

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[eben_rawls]: he was a lawyer, and he lived off the street from As, And his name was Bill

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[eben_rawls]: Feffcorn

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[eben_rawls]: and Bill Uh. Rather than teach traditional Sunday school,

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[eben_rawls]: he started uh, talking about the great trials in history. The trial of Socrates,

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, the the trials of Saco and Vanzeedtti, Jomo Kyada, the Scopes trial,

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[eben_rawls]: Um, And so he took these trials apart, and and and his teaching was about

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[eben_rawls]: the positive principles and also

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[eben_rawls]: the the way that Uh justice can be sidetracked.

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[eben_rawls]: And I was not a regular Sunday school goer, but I went to every single Sunday

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[eben_rawls]: morning class that he taught, and that that uh. that really started me thinking

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[eben_rawls]: about being a lawyer. Plus I was on the debate team at Reynolds high school.

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[eben_rawls]: Um,

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[eben_rawls]: we, uh, I was the on the affirmative team. We had, Uh, the Uh,

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[eben_rawls]: the the defense team and Uh, we won the state championship that year And but

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[eben_rawls]: the, The, my two partners on the negative team outpointed my partner and I, So

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[eben_rawls]: they were technically the state champions, but R. ▁j Reynolds one r, ▁j,

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[eben_rawls]: Reynolds won the Uh state championship that year, So I, I knew I. I, You know, I

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[eben_rawls]: had some abilities in terms of advocacy,

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[eben_rawls]: but um,

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[eben_rawls]: but when I was growing up, Uh I. I. I read several books that, and this is early

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[eben_rawls]: early Duke, And and uh, I read a book by Alan Watts. Um,

317
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[eben_rawls]: who’s a great ▁zin writer called the Way of ▁zin,

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[eben_rawls]: And that started me on this path of Uh. What I wanted in my life. I wanted to be

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[eben_rawls]: at the when I came to the end of my life. I wanted to sit on my front porch in a

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[eben_rawls]: rocking chair and really understand the nature of the world, the nature of

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[eben_rawls]: people and the nature of life, And that’s was my goal.

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[eben_rawls]: Uh, So, and that’s part of what Uh, inspired me to hitch hiike back and forth

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[eben_rawls]: across this country, No less than six times hop freight train from Eugene,

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[eben_rawls]: Oregon down to San Francisco.

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[eben_rawls]: Um, uh, and and travel uh, the various ways that I’ve traveled,

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[eben_rawls]: But um,

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[eben_rawls]: but it wasn’t until Uh, I was

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[eben_rawls]: applying for the ▁l. s a ts, when I was living and working in Elo, Arizona,

329
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[eben_rawls]: which is in between Tucson and Phoenix,

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[eben_rawls]: Um, that I really thought about going back to law school. Uh, I didn’t have any

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[eben_rawls]: idea what I’ do with it. Uh, when I started law school, I didn’t even know what

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[eben_rawls]: the word plaintiff meant, so that’s I. I started not from just level ground, but

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[eben_rawls]: from underground. When I started law school,

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[bill_powers]: Mhm. that’s okay. Um. I’ve always referred to myself as an accidental lawyer?

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[bill_powers]: I didn’t really

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[bill_powers]: have the motivations that I think some people have are going to law school

337
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[bill_powers]: and that’s that’s okay. I think having our own paths. I’m encouraged by Imb.

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[bill_powers]: One of things, Um. I cut the finally and got rid of the Um. Major satellite

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[bill_powers]: dish companies and I, I went more to the uh Youtube thing, and I really enjoy

340
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[bill_powers]: seeing these younger generations of people that are uh recording hiking the

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[bill_powers]: Alps or walk. One of the first ones I watch was walking Appalachian Trail,

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[bill_powers]: which I want to do, and younger folks living out of cars and and really

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[bill_powers]: experiencing flushing out that that kind of life

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[bill_powers]: and

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[bill_powers]: I can only imagine when you say hopping a train. I, I don’t think people

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[bill_powers]: realize you’re not talking necessarily about giv me the year row pass and

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[bill_powers]: having a first class seat with champagne and strawberries going under the

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[bill_powers]: shunnel, You in the back of a box car

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[bill_powers]: and popping a train as it’s hopefully not moving too quickly. Right.

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[eben_rawls]: That’s exactly right, and um,

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[eben_rawls]: and

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[bill_powers]: that’s crazy. Know that’s not

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[eben_rawls]: it’s well, ▁.

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[eben_rawls]: but it’s also a metaphor for life, because once

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[bill_powers]: Mhm,

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[eben_rawls]: that train pulls out, you’re not getting off till it’s over. You know it. And

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[eben_rawls]: and so the one train ride I can still uh, smell Uh, the Douglas furs and the

358
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[eben_rawls]: Cascade Mountains, The the train I hopped Uh, pulled out of U. Eugene, Oregon,

359
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[eben_rawls]: and then turned east into the Cascades, O, away from Uh any civilization. and as

360
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[eben_rawls]: night fell, I climbed up on top of the car

361
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[eben_rawls]: and the stars, You know, It was one of those where there was no light pollution.

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[eben_rawls]: The stars were everywhere, the Douglas furs, the the, the, the sets of the

363
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[eben_rawls]: Douglas firs were overpowering, and as this train moved through the night, it

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[eben_rawls]: really was I. I felt it was a metaphor for life, because once you know, once you

365
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[eben_rawls]: get on on this life you’re not getting off until the train pulls into the

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[eben_rawls]: station. But we, you know when when when morning came and I was still on the Uh

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[eben_rawls]: train and we would pass by these uh crossings with the arms down

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[bill_powers]: Mhm, Mhm,

369
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[eben_rawls]: and I was invisible, uh to to the people in there at the crossings and just

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[eben_rawls]: watching all the different types of families and faces and peoples and cars,

371
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[eben_rawls]: as as this train whisked me along,

372
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[eben_rawls]: realizing that I was just a a witness

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[eben_rawls]: to this part of America, and uh, it was a very powerful powerful train ride. I

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[eben_rawls]: got off the train, bill. Um, you know, I was warned that if you pulled into the

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[eben_rawls]: station,

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[eben_rawls]: the the. uh, the guards, would you know, beat the tre out of you. And

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[bill_powers]: Mhm,

378
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[eben_rawls]: and so uh, the train slowed down mid afternoon. So I’d been on the train about

379
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[eben_rawls]: twenty four hours. I got off the train

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[eben_rawls]: in the middle of a field.

381
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[eben_rawls]: No road, anywhere,

382
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[eben_rawls]: uh near near Sacramento, California,

383
00:28:50,160 –> 00:28:55,920
[eben_rawls]: and so I started walking, followed a creek down to a dirt road,

384
00:28:57,040 –> 00:29:01,360
[eben_rawls]: walked that dirt road till I could hitch hiike. That got it picked up, and then

385
00:29:02,080 –> 00:29:07,120
[eben_rawls]: then was uh, hitch hiike back to my apartment on Oak Street in San Francisco.

386
00:29:07,360 –> 00:29:13,200
[eben_rawls]: I’d been gone for about three weeks. or so. I. I decided to go uh hitch hiike

387
00:29:13,440 –> 00:29:17,920
[eben_rawls]: out to Uh Yosemite for a little while, then hitch hiike over to Boulder,

388
00:29:18,160 –> 00:29:24,960
[eben_rawls]: Colorado and check out Uh, what is now Neroa Institute, which is set up by a

389
00:29:25,280 –> 00:29:31,840
[eben_rawls]: Tibetan Laa named Trunkp Rimpochet. He’s was well known back in the day. He was

390
00:29:32,000 –> 00:29:35,040
[eben_rawls]: known for his ▁quote crazy wisdom, Inquote

391
00:29:36,160 –> 00:29:40,560
[eben_rawls]: and um, And so I was out in Boulder for a while and then hitched back up to see

392
00:29:40,720 –> 00:29:42,720
[eben_rawls]: some friends in Seattle and Eugene,

393
00:29:43,920 –> 00:29:48,800
[eben_rawls]: But uh, but yes, it was. uh. It’s it. It was enlightening.

394
00:29:50,109 –> 00:29:53,629
[bill_powers]: What if you eat? I mean, did you bring give knapsack or something? with your

395
00:29:52,800 –> 00:29:57,680
[eben_rawls]: Yeah, oh, I, I carried everything on my back. Everything I owned was in my, uh,

396
00:29:58,080 –> 00:30:03,680
[eben_rawls]: My, my backpack, I had a sleeping bag, I had a small tent, I had a tarp, I had

397
00:30:03,920 –> 00:30:11,600
[eben_rawls]: food. I had matches. I had uh, paper for different different things, and um and

398
00:30:12,500 –> 00:30:13,500
[eben_rawls]: uh, Yes,

399
00:30:13,149 –> 00:30:14,669
[bill_powers]: writing your extensive notes,

400
00:30:14,640 –> 00:30:18,720
[eben_rawls]: Well, and for uh, starting a fire. If I needed to start a fire,

401
00:30:18,449 –> 00:30:19,449
[bill_powers]: Mhm,

402
00:30:19,040 –> 00:30:24,560
[eben_rawls]: you know those kinds of things. but uh, but yeah, everything I. I was very

403
00:30:24,880 –> 00:30:30,880
[eben_rawls]: efficient. Everything I carried was in my backpack. Um, and when I came back

404
00:30:30,849 –> 00:30:31,849
[bill_powers]: you know there’s a

405
00:30:30,960 –> 00:30:32,160
[eben_rawls]: to Lo, go ahead

406
00:30:32,829 –> 00:30:34,029
[bill_powers]: no, You go ahead. I’m sorry,

407
00:30:33,440 –> 00:30:37,920
[eben_rawls]: now when I came back to law school, Uh, where? when I started law school, Uh,

408
00:30:38,240 –> 00:30:44,240
[eben_rawls]: after applying, Um, all, I ha, all the possessions I had fit in my backpack.

409
00:30:44,560 –> 00:30:46,560
[eben_rawls]: That’s what I carried back across the country.

410
00:30:48,269 –> 00:30:53,229
[bill_powers]: there is a return to that. Um, and by the way, thanks for sharing. I just love

411
00:30:53,769 –> 00:30:54,769
[bill_powers]: that story. The.

412
00:30:56,029 –> 00:31:01,389
[bill_powers]: um. it almost sounds romantic to me. turning off the noise that we have.

413
00:31:02,669 –> 00:31:08,029
[bill_powers]: Uh today you mentioned something earlier. Uh, that like to kind of get into a

414
00:31:08,029 –> 00:31:11,309
[bill_powers]: little bit. I don’t go too long. We’re obviously going to have to do a lot more

415
00:31:11,469 –> 00:31:17,149
[bill_powers]: at these cause this is just an amazing story. uh, een, but um, something I got

416
00:31:17,389 –> 00:31:21,149
[bill_powers]: into few two three years ago. Maybe now is the uh, mindfulness,

417
00:31:20,900 –> 00:31:21,900
[eben_rawls]: Mhm.

418
00:31:21,709 –> 00:31:28,029
[bill_powers]: Um, the focus type of Uh, meditation and causing yourself or forcing yourself

419
00:31:28,429 –> 00:31:34,109
[bill_powers]: to Uh, turn off the devices. Turn off the technologies go to a ▁quiet place and

420
00:31:35,229 –> 00:31:40,829
[bill_powers]: Um, focus on breathing and focus on on on turning off these things. And you did

421
00:31:40,989 –> 00:31:45,869
[bill_powers]: that. Even before a time where we had electronics, You did it with your life in

422
00:31:45,949 –> 00:31:48,589
[bill_powers]: your lifestyle and not that there weren’t sounds, but there were different

423
00:31:48,749 –> 00:31:53,389
[bill_powers]: types of sounds. Not that there weren’t stimuli. You. You mentioned the the

424
00:31:53,549 –> 00:31:58,189
[bill_powers]: smell of the the furs and the I’m imagine trains, actually pretty loud and

425
00:31:58,349 –> 00:31:59,869
[bill_powers]: noisy. But um,

426
00:32:01,149 –> 00:32:03,869
[bill_powers]: if you don’t mind, I mean if you, as you feel comforful sharing a little bit

427
00:32:04,029 –> 00:32:05,229
[bill_powers]: about that focus in your thought

428
00:32:07,069 –> 00:32:11,789
[bill_powers]: of mindfulness and meditation and how that affects you affected you then and do

429
00:32:11,789 –> 00:32:14,269
[bill_powers]: you still use it now? Do you still use those techniques now?

430
00:32:14,960 –> 00:32:19,280
[eben_rawls]: Well, thank thank you, Bill. Let me let me start by saying that Uh, just this

431
00:32:19,440 –> 00:32:24,960
[eben_rawls]: week the Vietnamese ▁zinmaster ticknothn, uh passed away,

432
00:32:26,000 –> 00:32:35,120
[eben_rawls]: Um, and I watched Uh, his uh ceremony, uh on on uh, Youtube, Uh, earlier this

433
00:32:34,820 –> 00:32:35,820
[eben_rawls]: week,

434
00:32:36,640 –> 00:32:42,960
[eben_rawls]: Uh tiknot han, Uh, Also his Uh, his students call him Thai, which means teacher.

435
00:32:44,240 –> 00:32:49,680
[eben_rawls]: He is the one that is credited with Uh, uh, the term mindfulness,

436
00:32:50,800 –> 00:32:57,280
[eben_rawls]: uh tiknot, Han was a uh, uh, a ▁zin student. In the sixties he came to the

437
00:32:57,360 –> 00:33:02,800
[eben_rawls]: United States and became very close friends with Martin Luther King. Martin

438
00:33:03,040 –> 00:33:07,520
[eben_rawls]: Luther King nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize in Sixty seven, which I

439
00:33:07,600 –> 00:33:14,480
[eben_rawls]: think is the only year one was not, Um. One was not uh awarded. but Bill, let me

440
00:33:14,560 –> 00:33:19,600
[eben_rawls]: tell you a s. quick story. Uh, the year is nineteen ninety three.

441
00:33:21,280 –> 00:33:26,240
[eben_rawls]: I have a case in front of the enforcement division of the Securities and

442
00:33:26,400 –> 00:33:32,800
[eben_rawls]: Exchange Division in Washington. I’m representing a local banker that has got

443
00:33:32,820 –> 00:33:33,820
[eben_rawls]: some issues

444
00:33:34,720 –> 00:33:36,400
[eben_rawls]: Uh, with the enforcement division

445
00:33:37,840 –> 00:33:42,000
[eben_rawls]: and be. And and I’ve got to go to Washington to present the case,

446
00:33:42,580 –> 00:33:43,580
[eben_rawls]: Um.

447
00:33:44,960 –> 00:33:49,520
[eben_rawls]: Prior to going to Washington, one of my good friends, who’s a psychologist here

448
00:33:49,600 –> 00:33:51,040
[eben_rawls]: in town, Joe Perrisi

449
00:33:52,400 –> 00:33:59,280
[eben_rawls]: had told me that Um, there was uh, this Vietnamese odd ▁zinmaster. that was

450
00:33:59,360 –> 00:34:00,400
[eben_rawls]: giving a retreat

451
00:34:01,600 –> 00:34:03,600
[eben_rawls]: in Charlestown, West Virginia.

452
00:34:04,640 –> 00:34:10,080
[eben_rawls]: That uh, that overlapped with my trip to Washington, and he suggested that I

453
00:34:10,500 –> 00:34:11,500
[eben_rawls]: attend,

454
00:34:12,240 –> 00:34:19,200
[eben_rawls]: And so I packed up a uh, a camping equipment sleeping bag as well as uh, all the

455
00:34:19,680 –> 00:34:25,120
[eben_rawls]: notes and Coatton tie for enforcement division, Uh, arguments, and flew up to

456
00:34:25,200 –> 00:34:26,560
[eben_rawls]: Washington, rented a car.

457
00:34:28,320 –> 00:34:35,280
[eben_rawls]: and uh, but the enforcement division case went so well, I mean, we walked out of

458
00:34:35,360 –> 00:34:41,120
[eben_rawls]: there with no license suspension. Those civil fines or forfeitures, no criminal

459
00:34:41,280 –> 00:34:46,960
[eben_rawls]: referrals, and it was one of those cases where Y you’re just ecstatic and and I

460
00:34:47,200 –> 00:34:52,960
[eben_rawls]: found myself wondering why am I going to go up to Uh, the place called Clayemont

461
00:34:53,200 –> 00:34:56,400
[eben_rawls]: Court in West Virginia to camp out for a week

462
00:34:57,440 –> 00:35:02,080
[eben_rawls]: when uh, you know I can go drink a great bottle of wine and celebrate this wind,

463
00:35:02,240 –> 00:35:04,880
[eben_rawls]: But I drove up there, set up my tent

464
00:35:06,080 –> 00:35:10,960
[eben_rawls]: and kicknot, Han. I had read about him before, but he was there and it was a

465
00:35:11,120 –> 00:35:16,720
[eben_rawls]: relatively small retreat that attracted Uh environmental activists out of

466
00:35:16,960 –> 00:35:21,120
[eben_rawls]: Washington, D, C. mostly, but there was a small group from North Carolina.

467
00:35:22,480 –> 00:35:28,800
[eben_rawls]: But that week ticknot Hans spent Uh every morning two or three hours in what’s

468
00:35:28,960 –> 00:35:31,280
[eben_rawls]: known as a Darma talk. Where he would?

469
00:35:32,480 –> 00:35:39,120
[eben_rawls]: he would, uh, talk about the principles of living and Buddhism and mindfulness

470
00:35:39,760 –> 00:35:44,640
[eben_rawls]: and being in the present moment, And Um, and I won’t get into all the different

471
00:35:45,040 –> 00:35:51,040
[eben_rawls]: Uh eightfold path and fourd noble trees and all that stuff. But Um, it was a

472
00:35:51,200 –> 00:35:57,360
[eben_rawls]: remarkable week. So I, this is nineteen ninety three. I came back to Charlotte,

473
00:35:58,240 –> 00:36:03,760
[eben_rawls]: and the Tknot, Han was going to give a retreat. His next retreat was going to be

474
00:36:04,000 –> 00:36:05,200
[eben_rawls]: out in Uh, California,

475
00:36:06,640 –> 00:36:10,240
[eben_rawls]: and I packed up. I sent everyone in my office

476
00:36:11,520 –> 00:36:18,080
[eben_rawls]: out to California to attend this retreat along with my wife, Leslie, and Leslie

477
00:36:18,320 –> 00:36:24,480
[eben_rawls]: later became Uh, the editor of his Uh international journal, and in two thousand

478
00:36:24,800 –> 00:36:31,600
[eben_rawls]: and nine T she he. She was invited to France by Tiknot Han, and was awarded what

479
00:36:31,760 –> 00:36:37,280
[eben_rawls]: is known as the lamp transmission, which makes her a Uh Darma teacher in his

480
00:36:37,520 –> 00:36:43,680
[eben_rawls]: lineage. So we are. We were very very close to Tknohn and his people, but

481
00:36:37,869 –> 00:36:48,509
[bill_powers]: Hm,

482
00:36:44,000 –> 00:36:48,000
[eben_rawls]: mindfulness was the term he coined, and Bill,

483
00:36:49,360 –> 00:36:51,360
[eben_rawls]: uh, there’s nothing more powerful

484
00:36:52,720 –> 00:36:58,320
[eben_rawls]: than being present in the present moment in court from moment to moment.

485
00:36:59,600 –> 00:37:05,360
[eben_rawls]: Um. If you can do it, you know, your your mind is usually racing forwards and

486
00:37:05,440 –> 00:37:12,080
[eben_rawls]: backwards and sideways, and Um. And, but it’s uh. it is a very powerful place to

487
00:37:12,240 –> 00:37:17,520
[eben_rawls]: stand if you can be in the present moment and only in the present moment, Um, in

488
00:37:17,680 –> 00:37:18,800
[eben_rawls]: court, and in life

489
00:37:20,560 –> 00:37:21,680
[eben_rawls]: did that answer your question.

490
00:37:22,909 –> 00:37:29,869
[bill_powers]: it did. Um, Of course, It brought up a hundred more questions for me. I started

491
00:37:30,029 –> 00:37:34,509
[bill_powers]: hearing about mindfulness from a a guy who is on’s, a newscaster named Dan

492
00:37:34,669 –> 00:37:36,349
[bill_powers]: Harris, who had a panic attack

493
00:37:37,389 –> 00:37:41,549
[bill_powers]: during a national broadcast and uh, for no apparent reason,

494
00:37:42,409 –> 00:37:43,409
[bill_powers]: and Um

495
00:37:44,509 –> 00:37:46,749
[bill_powers]: started listening to this podcast

496
00:37:47,949 –> 00:37:51,789
[bill_powers]: and I don’t have no affiliation with it. Not like there’. clicking going on

497
00:37:51,869 –> 00:37:54,109
[bill_powers]: here. Just this disclosure is called Ten percent happier,

498
00:37:55,149 –> 00:38:00,269
[bill_powers]: and Um, his is not faith based, And that’s one thing they teach you. Doesn’t be

499
00:38:00,409 –> 00:38:01,409
[bill_powers]: ith based. I mean,

500
00:38:00,980 –> 00:38:01,980
[eben_rawls]: Eight,

501
00:38:01,469 –> 00:38:06,109
[bill_powers]: you don’t have to be a Tibetan monk. You don’t have to have that level of um.

502
00:38:06,909 –> 00:38:12,269
[bill_powers]: Uh, of of participation, and it can be just a almost a physiological. Uh, type

503
00:38:12,349 –> 00:38:15,309
[bill_powers]: of deal. It’s something I’ve dealt with myself in court.

504
00:38:16,429 –> 00:38:23,629
[bill_powers]: Uh, trial lawyers are an unusual breed. in my a personal opinion, Um, and we

505
00:38:23,789 –> 00:38:27,229
[bill_powers]: have all the frailties of being human, and sometimes more,

506
00:38:27,380 –> 00:38:28,380
[eben_rawls]: he,

507
00:38:28,189 –> 00:38:33,389
[bill_powers]: Um, myself, Um, and I and I, I. I. I shared it this just because I, I hope

508
00:38:33,469 –> 00:38:35,229
[bill_powers]: younger lawyers listening in,

509
00:38:34,740 –> 00:38:35,740
[eben_rawls]: eight,

510
00:38:36,349 –> 00:38:40,349
[bill_powers]: you know, I, I, I findight anxiety time going to court. I have trouble turning

511
00:38:40,509 –> 00:38:45,309
[bill_powers]: off my brain at night. What makes you sometimes effectual or effective in court

512
00:38:45,789 –> 00:38:49,549
[bill_powers]: and your hyper focus in your preparation can make you very difficult to be

513
00:38:49,789 –> 00:38:52,349
[bill_powers]: around personally, in my opinion,

514
00:38:53,389 –> 00:38:58,189
[bill_powers]: and Um, just this week there’s been a passing of someone that was very dear in

515
00:38:58,189 –> 00:39:03,709
[bill_powers]: the Charlotte legal community, Uh, an attorney and someone who, Um, had a lot

516
00:39:03,869 –> 00:39:11,869
[bill_powers]: going for her and I do worry for our profession, Um, the the mental aspects of

517
00:39:11,949 –> 00:39:17,389
[bill_powers]: pracing law. Uh, we have one of the highest Uh rates of Um. Substance abuse,

518
00:39:17,629 –> 00:39:22,829
[bill_powers]: Uh, at any profession, Uh, we had not really studied the issue very much, and

519
00:39:22,989 –> 00:39:27,629
[bill_powers]: Um, during my tenure of In C A ▁j, we really focused on that and it’s a

520
00:39:27,709 –> 00:39:32,829
[bill_powers]: disturbing trend, but it’s a treatable trend if we acknowledge it, and um, I

521
00:39:32,909 –> 00:39:38,349
[bill_powers]: encourage people. Um, Um, and I, I’m sorry to kind of spin off here, but you,

522
00:39:38,589 –> 00:39:42,669
[bill_powers]: You brought up some some points, this mindfulness, This, this focus applies not

523
00:39:42,669 –> 00:39:45,229
[bill_powers]: just in the practical law in your personal life, and there is a

524
00:39:45,060 –> 00:39:46,060
[eben_rawls]: seven,

525
00:39:45,309 –> 00:39:49,949
[bill_powers]: balance there that’s important, Um. It’s something that the state bar has. Um.

526
00:39:50,109 –> 00:39:54,989
[bill_powers]: I have to commend them. Uh U, Darren Jordan, Uh, the staff and state bar, the

527
00:39:54,989 –> 00:39:57,149
[bill_powers]: people Aff affiliated with the Pa program,

528
00:39:58,269 –> 00:40:02,829
[bill_powers]: Um, the committees, Um, the ethics and agreements committees. It’s something

529
00:40:02,989 –> 00:40:06,989
[bill_powers]: that it’s all there’s inseparable nexus. If you will, I think in the prax

530
00:40:06,849 –> 00:40:07,849
[bill_powers]: alone,

531
00:40:08,509 –> 00:40:12,829
[bill_powers]: so um, I’ll do some Um in the notes here. I’ll do some links for attorneys to

532
00:40:12,909 –> 00:40:15,549
[bill_powers]: the State Bar Palace program, and to

533
00:40:14,160 –> 00:40:18,880
[eben_rawls]: Yes, Bill, I, Bill, I’m on the board of the lap program is called the Lo

534
00:40:18,989 –> 00:40:20,749
[bill_powers]: I, I’m sorry, I called it pals, That’s the old

535
00:40:19,280 –> 00:40:22,160
[eben_rawls]: is La. Yeah, that’s the old one, but this the lap

536
00:40:21,809 –> 00:40:22,809
[bill_powers]: yeah,

537
00:40:22,400 –> 00:40:29,040
[eben_rawls]: program now and it is. I think one of the best Uh programs that the bar has,

538
00:40:30,240 –> 00:40:36,960
[eben_rawls]: And it, um. It helps Uh, hundreds and hundreds of attorneys every year that are

539
00:40:37,120 –> 00:40:42,240
[eben_rawls]: dealing not only with substance abuse issues but with mental health issues with

540
00:40:42,480 –> 00:40:48,560
[eben_rawls]: issues having to do with Uh, you know stress and mindfulness, you know that, uh

541
00:40:49,120 –> 00:40:54,400
[eben_rawls]: that we’ve discussed here, But Robin Meredi is the executive director of the lap

542
00:40:54,180 –> 00:40:55,180
[eben_rawls]: program

543
00:40:54,289 –> 00:40:55,289
[bill_powers]: Mhm, Mhm,

544
00:40:55,120 –> 00:40:57,040
[eben_rawls]: and please put a link up for that.

545
00:40:58,080 –> 00:41:03,440
[eben_rawls]: these folks are really uh, guardian angels to our profession

546
00:41:04,749 –> 00:41:09,789
[bill_powers]: Yeah, and I apologize. I. I’m the old acronym pos, I, it la. I mean, What is

547
00:41:09,789 –> 00:41:11,389
[bill_powers]: laps standan for acronym again,

548
00:41:10,720 –> 00:41:12,080
[eben_rawls]: Lawyer’s assistance program.

549
00:41:12,769 –> 00:41:13,769
[bill_powers]: right,

550
00:41:14,349 –> 00:41:18,349
[bill_powers]: um, this is something that in my generation of lawyers and I don’t know if it’s

551
00:41:18,429 –> 00:41:21,709
[bill_powers]: still true. Now. I hope that law schools are teaching this. But the my level of

552
00:41:21,709 –> 00:41:24,429
[bill_powers]: ignorance about the availability of these different programs,

553
00:41:25,629 –> 00:41:31,789
[bill_powers]: among other many, many other areas of ignorance was so incredibly, Um,

554
00:41:32,829 –> 00:41:36,429
[bill_powers]: almost disheartening to me. I had no idea the resources a lot of lawyers that

555
00:41:36,429 –> 00:41:43,069
[bill_powers]: they’ve studied this. Uh, they’re afraid of saying anything. They’re afraid of

556
00:41:43,229 –> 00:41:46,109
[bill_powers]: seeking help and it. It actually makes things worse.

557
00:41:47,389 –> 00:41:53,149
[bill_powers]: Um, and then and then, Um, I’ve seen I call the flame mounts. I’ve seen

558
00:41:53,549 –> 00:41:56,749
[bill_powers]: numerous flam outts in I legal profession. Just in my time, I, I have to

559
00:41:56,749 –> 00:41:59,389
[bill_powers]: assume, and you and I know some of the same people. I would think,

560
00:42:00,049 –> 00:42:01,049
[bill_powers]: um.

561
00:42:01,629 –> 00:42:05,549
[bill_powers]: I, so I would definitely put Um a a referral to it, but it’s it’s confidential.

562
00:42:05,420 –> 00:42:06,420
[eben_rawls]: Yep,

563
00:42:06,429 –> 00:42:11,629
[bill_powers]: Uh, they make referrals, Um, two different mental health, um association

564
00:42:11,949 –> 00:42:16,029
[bill_powers]: substance abuse associations, and they, and they, they are counselors as well.

565
00:42:15,729 –> 00:42:16,729
[bill_powers]: They

566
00:42:15,900 –> 00:42:16,900
[eben_rawls]: Yep,

567
00:42:16,349 –> 00:42:18,589
[bill_powers]: can help you go through these different times

568
00:42:19,709 –> 00:42:22,509
[bill_powers]: and Um, and evan, Um, I,

569
00:42:24,269 –> 00:42:28,429
[bill_powers]: This is something that has being on the board mean. I’m not just saying. I’m

570
00:42:28,509 –> 00:42:31,149
[bill_powers]: going ask you. it’s confidential, right, These are things that lawyers can

571
00:42:30,740 –> 00:42:31,740
[eben_rawls]: the

572
00:42:31,309 –> 00:42:35,309
[bill_powers]: then go in and know that they. they’re going to what they have to say is not

573
00:42:35,389 –> 00:42:38,829
[bill_powers]: going to be public. It’s not going to affect our reputation in the community or

574
00:42:39,049 –> 00:42:40,049
[bill_powers]: profession, correct,

575
00:42:40,080 –> 00:42:45,600
[eben_rawls]: that is correct. Uh, but sometimes uh, lawyers, like you say, hold on too long

576
00:42:45,920 –> 00:42:50,640
[eben_rawls]: before they seek help and it gets them in front of the grievance committee of

577
00:42:50,720 –> 00:42:56,320
[eben_rawls]: the either the local bar or the state bar. And and so what the lap program tries

578
00:42:56,480 –> 00:43:01,920
[eben_rawls]: to do is try to uh, run ahead of that and not you know. Try to

579
00:43:03,040 –> 00:43:07,360
[eben_rawls]: reach the issues before they uh, become issues for grievance,

580
00:43:08,560 –> 00:43:14,160
[eben_rawls]: But um, but it is confidential. Sometimes G, the grievance Uh committee of the

581
00:43:14,240 –> 00:43:20,720
[eben_rawls]: state Bar will refer Uh lawyers to the lap program for a contract where there

582
00:43:20,340 –> 00:43:21,340
[eben_rawls]: there are

583
00:43:22,080 –> 00:43:27,440
[eben_rawls]: just periodic reports back to the grievance committee about whether they’re

584
00:43:27,680 –> 00:43:30,800
[eben_rawls]: complying at all without any of specifics, But it is

585
00:43:30,689 –> 00:43:31,689
[bill_powers]: Mhm,

586
00:43:31,280 –> 00:43:36,400
[eben_rawls]: it is confidential. The state bar counselors, Uh, like myself that serve on the

587
00:43:36,480 –> 00:43:41,600
[eben_rawls]: board cannot be a member of the grievance committee, Um, because it is

588
00:43:41,840 –> 00:43:43,680
[eben_rawls]: confidential. Uh, what we do?

589
00:43:44,609 –> 00:43:45,609
[bill_powers]: right,

590
00:43:46,909 –> 00:43:51,869
[bill_powers]: well, have’. uh. This has been amazing, and Um, I had told you I’d only take

591
00:43:52,269 –> 00:43:55,149
[bill_powers]: twenty twenty five minutes of your time, and we are now at. According to my

592
00:43:55,149 –> 00:43:59,069
[bill_powers]: little clicker here, forty three minutes. And I feel like we’ve just scratched

593
00:43:59,229 –> 00:44:05,229
[bill_powers]: the surface. Ah to our listeners. If you have uh, ideas or suggestions or

594
00:44:05,309 –> 00:44:09,229
[bill_powers]: questions for Evan. Assuming Evan, you’ willing to come on again, I hope you

595
00:44:08,849 –> 00:44:09,849
[bill_powers]: are,

596
00:44:09,100 –> 00:44:10,100
[eben_rawls]: Yes, I’ll be back,

597
00:44:11,309 –> 00:44:16,509
[bill_powers]: please email me at law. Talk with Bill Powers at G, Mail dot com. If you want

598
00:44:16,589 –> 00:44:22,109
[bill_powers]: to know some more specifics of other areas of law that interest you, Um like to

599
00:44:22,109 –> 00:44:25,069
[bill_powers]: go over different things which youd like to know. the structure of how to state

600
00:44:25,309 –> 00:44:28,829
[bill_powers]: Bar works, and the differences between the agreements committee and the ethics

601
00:44:28,909 –> 00:44:33,549
[bill_powers]: committee, and what it means to be a self regulating bar. Let’s listen in. Ah,

602
00:44:33,789 –> 00:44:38,029
[bill_powers]: so thank you so much again, Eben, and has been a pleasure to have you on show.

603
00:44:38,180 –> 00:44:39,180
[eben_rawls]: thank you Bill.